Early Internet Socials Podcast Transcript

Why did online social networks start in the first place? What need did they serve, or what need were they designed to serve?  Join us as we look back at some of the earliest networks, before dial-up, and trace their development up to the early 90's.

Taryn Ward  Hi. I'm Taryn Ward.

Steven Jones  And I'm Steven Jones.

Taryn Ward  And this is Breaking the Feed, Social Media: Beyond the Headlines. We're taking a closer look at the core issues around social media, including the existing social media landscape. To better understand the role social media plays in our everyday lives and society. 

Taryn Ward  To start, we're looking back at where it all started, pre-smartphone, online social networking, by thinking about where social media started and why and thinking about how it's changed, and why we're better place to consider which of these changes had been for the better than we have been for the worse.

Taryn Ward  Today, look closely at some of the earliest online social networks, before dial-up up before America Online and way before the era of big tech. There were bulletin board systems, BBS', and of course CompuServe. Although outwardly, these networks don't closely resemble our current experiences, social media, if we start with our why question, why did online social networks start in the first place? What need did serve, or what need was designed to serve? This is a good place to start. 

Steven Jones  If you didn't catch our episode on defining social networks, we use fun outlined in the 2007 paper published by the Oxford University Press. Social networks are web-based services that allow individuals to 

1. construct a public or semi-public profile within a bounded system,
2. articulate a list of other users with whom they share a connection, and 
3. view and traverse the list of connections and those made by others within the system.

Taryn Ward  By this definition, some of the early BBS' wouldn't qualify, but some would. And importantly, in many ways, this is where things really started. When we ask why did online social networking start in the first place? And what need was a design to serve? The answer for once is a simple one. People wanted to connect in new and different ways. So let's jump back to the late 70s and early 80s. And think about who those early users were, and what was happening. This context matters. 

Steven Jones  We could spend hours on this. But for our purposes, this time period after the civil rights movement in Watergate is often discussed as one of transition politically, economically and culturally. Whether for the better or the worse.

Taryn Ward  Most middle-income families had started or completed the transition from radio to television, often even to colour television, and many even had their own video game console for the first time. Transitions are rarely easy in this period was not without its challenges, including extreme inflation and a recession. But it was anything but boring. See if can you tell us a little bit about the late 70s and early 80s In the UK, either from experience or stories that you've heard?

Steven Jones  All right. Yeah. I mean, I was around. I remember. I remember clearly the the summer of 76, which was like this absolutely staggering. drought and standpipes are erected in the streets. I remember equally clearly, the winter of discontent, There were garbage piled up in the streets, and we have rolling blackouts that year, my mother bought my sister and I, the Casper, the Friendly Ghost game, which was fluorescent, and we could play in the dark, which was really helpful, because quite often in the evenings, we were operating by the light of a paraffin lamp, and the gas fire because all of the electricity in the house was off. And this battery-powered fluorescent sort of Casper game, which we still have, I think my sister has it, you know, that was it. That was the that was what we could see you couldn't play in other games. It wasn't on TV, radios didn't work. So it you know, it was that was a big cultural shift, and I think, create a lot of energy, which resulted in the subsequent election of, of Margaret Thatcher. So that was a that was a huge, sort of like sea change. And that was a different type of conservatism. Up until then, I think, the last 40 or so years, everybody, whether left or right was more or less, more or less on the same sort of page around sort of social security net, and all those other types of things. But this was this was a huge change, for the better or the worse. I think that intro summed that up, and was then followed, I guess, in the US by the rise of Ronald Reagan going to the taking of hostages in Iran in the night 1980, I guess? Yeah. So it was it was definitely a big sort of change. And we've gone through the fuel crisis, where people couldn't get fuel out of the lineup for, you know, for oil and gas was was absolutely immence. So there was a lot of stuff going on. And subsequently to Margaret Thatcher taking over again, it was the sell off of council housing and the rise of car ownership and reduction in restrictions on out of town building and so on and so forth, which meant that cars became much more common. And yeah, it was just a it was a lot of a lot of change. My kids now talk about how Everything is always changing. And I guess it's probably true that the rate of change has become greater. But those were major upheavals and fundamentally set the conditions with which we live today. I think we're still living through some of the consequences of those times. 

Taryn Ward  Yeah, I think that's that's a really important point. Because I mean, this whole episode, really, the point is to set up for what would come next in terms of social media. But context really does matter. And I think some of the social media phenomena that we've seen, couldn't have been without the culture shifts that came first. And they were successful because they responded to what was happening culturally, politically, economically, and to your point about, you know, the winter of discontent and the standpipes, which for Americans were listening. And don't know about this, because I didn't know. They erected standpipes in the street because you couldn't get running water to your house. So you would have to go out right, correct me if I'm wrong. You'd have to go out and fill whatever drinking water you needed for the day and bring it home.

Steven Jones  Yeah, I mean, I think you had garden watering restrictions last year, because there was a drought in the summer. Right? I said, you remember that? And it was like that, but but it was like that, but on steroids. I know that. It's, you know, almost inconceivable that people would be sort of okay, and I guess people weren't really okay with it. But it was just a fact of life that nothing was getting watered. I'm not sure whether they ever actually used the standpipe. But they were put out and they were like, they were absolutely right. The they were their connections in the street where people would have to go and collect the water they were going to use in the house, which is, you know, it's remarkable that that was the situation in the UK, because there just wasn't enough water in the reservoirs to meet the demand. Absolutely amazing, isn't it? Yeah.

Taryn Ward  And that it's still an issue now. So I mean, obviously not, to that extent, at least as far as I know. But you know, people were told you can't fill your pools, you can water your garden, you can water your vegetable patch. There are some exemptions, but by and large, you know, there just wasn't enough water to go around. And it's not like we're talking about desert situation, right? I mean, the UK is sort of known for rain and for being a pretty humid place. So sort of a sort of a strange connection, timing-wise. And, of course, the electricity, gas, whatever connection. I mean, we didn't exactly have a winter of discontent. But there are a lot of people who had a very difficult winter here. And so you know, as much as things change, they also sort of say the same.

Steven Jones  Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, right? We've had, you know, Will, that the problems with the UK have been having recently, sort of spur the same sort of cultural, economic and political shift in the next few years that the 70s caused, which resulted in what we saw in the 80s and the 90s. And, and then it's actually going to be really interesting how this, this plays out. I mean, I think, possibly not quite the difference, because there isn't that much daylight between the left and the right anymore, is there as the was it between the Labour Party of Callaghan and the and the Conservative Party of Margaret Thatcher.

Taryn Ward  Definitely not the same problem in the US.

Steven Jones  No different level of problem, which perhaps we'll get to on a different episode.

Taryn Ward  I hope that turning back to social media, I think it Your point is, is a really interesting one, you know, will the things that are happening in our everyday lives now, will it reflect similar changes in terms of technology and how we connect online that we saw in in the 80s, because there was the shift. You know, remember, now that we're talking about a time that was pre-dial-up, if that's hard for you to wrap your mind around, it's very hard for me to wrap my mind around because I just don't think of a time I think, have no Internet, and then dial-up. And then this, you know, the beep, beep, whatever sound but I don't often think about that time before dial-up. So late 70s into the 80s. Computers are still fairly limited, right? So they're becoming more common, but but certainly not something that every family would have, or most families would have in there wasn't a whole lot to do with them, even if you did have them sort of like a glorified calculator and typewriter, I guess. But for certain people, they were figuring out how to do more than how to connect using phone lines and in how to make this really work in a different way. So most of the use was limited to major institutions in university. So one example that I love to show how limited this this really was, is that even the BBC didn't gain access until 1989. So really, really limited number of people who who were playing online and setting up these communities early on.

Steven Jones  This is remarkable isn't that incredible. Yeah, the BBC is the one institution in the UK which is dedicated to communicating with other people. That's, that's its job. It's not there to facilitate the communication, like the telephone network, its job is to talk to other people. And it didn't have access to, you know, online communication until 1989.

Taryn Ward  Yeah, and there are similar, we're not picking on the BBC. By the way, there are lots of institutions like it that didn't have access until, until much later. And even when they did, it was through universities. I have to I have to share this just to paint the picture a little bit further. So one commentator has described these early users of these bulletin board systems as this is a quote, so don't get upset with me. Ardent enthusiasts and techno-babbling hobbyists, pocket-protector-wearing social rejects or nerds boring, reclusive nerds at that. O!ch. Yeah, it's not my it's not my line. But it does paint a picture, not the most generous description. But I don't think it's necessarily untrue. Unfair, maybe. But the point really, that this commentator was trying to make it we're trying to make now and in a slightly gentler way, is it, it would have taken some really specific expertise, time care, patience, and motivation to set up these early networks, there was no clear path to revenue, or professional rewards. So this had to be really important to them.

Steven Jones  I think that's right. I mean, it, it was it was completely beyond my my capability or even understanding. I mean, I didn't even think about using computers to do that. So we had, we had Pong, remember Pong, there, we plug it into that TV, and you'd have two paddles, which will up, up and down either side in football, which would have two paddles on each two things on each side, which you control? Like digitised foosball? Yeah, the idea that computers would sort of connect to one another, wasn't really something which I thought about until we watched the movie WarGames, in 1993, where a kid, you know, wore dials, which I actually had to look that term up, which is where a computer would be connected to the telephone network, and it would just dial everything in the neighbourhood, to see where it got a digital signal and the connection to another computer, of course, he breaks into the AI system, and the fact that we thought that could be built at that time. You know, it was ludicrous, because clearly, they, it just wasn't possible. And then the computer famously learns that tic tac toe is the reason why you shouldn't have a nuclear war, because you can't win. That was the movie in 10 seconds. That you know, that was it that that could that compute his computer from his room, talks to other computers. And that was complete revelation. I was doing Gosh, CSE was the forerunner of GCSEs in 1983/84, in computer science, and we were still learning about punch cards, as part of the syllabus. I mean, we actually had, you know, little Welsh-built Dragon 32 computers to do basic programming on, they were not connected to each other, let alone the internet, or, you know, anything outside. But yeah, we were learning how they used the punch cards to programme computers in big institutions. And one of the big shows of that area was Wonder Woman with Linda Carter, and they had a computer in a set in that, but it was these big, sort of like filing cabinet size steel boxes with tape decks whirling in the background, that was the state of the art computing for TV then. So you know, average people hadn't. It hadn't occurred to them. I think most people that you could do this, the people who knew they could do it and knew how to do it, were absolutely these, these nerdy people. And I say that as as you know, a king nerd myself, there is nerds change the world in fundamental ways. The problem is they don't always understand how it's going to turn out. And I think social media is one of those things.

Taryn Ward  Yeah, it's interesting, your reference to AI when you were talking just then because I, it almost feels like there's something similar. So in our super nerd circles, you know, AI-ML has been part of the conversation for quite a long time. We've been talking about it and trying to figure it out and playing with it a little bit. And then really, this year, all of a sudden, it's everywhere. Everybody's talking about it, everybody's using it, chat GPT made it accessible to a huge number of people are at least, you know, the the media coverage that it got, made it clear that this was sort of out there and available for people to use. And, you know, not that I'm comparing AI-ML to the internet. Exactly, or to those early social network systems. But there is sort of a similar sense of it sort of stays just below the surface, and then all of a sudden, there's this huge leap forward and it's everywhere. 

Steven Jones  Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, you know, other than science fiction The actual practical building and working with machine learning and, you know, real AI systems has been the work of nerds. Up until now, it wasn't really in the public domain. You know, what did we do? We played chess with this because it would show how clever our programming was. And, you know, other things. But, but chat, GPT is like these bulletin boards turning into Facebook, that perhaps a little bit before that ma, be turning into MySpace or something, it's suddenly become mainstream. And I'm reminded of a talk I saw at a conference about biotechnology. And it was somebody who was at sort of IBM, in the, at the beginning of the 70s. And they like, you know, we saw these massive increases in the capability of the technology. But what we didn't realise is, we were actually in pretty much the flat stage of how the technology was developing. And, you know, it wasn't until we actually hit the exponential increase in the capability of the technology that we realised that these amazingly quick broke, you know, progress that we thought we were making was actually incredibly slow. And these computers were only like crawling forward, you just never know at the time where you are on the exponential growth curve. And I have a sneaking suspicion that we're, you know, with, with AI, we're still very much in that early, flat bit just above, nothing at all. Anybody who says they know where this is going to go is basically reading tea leaves, and you should trust them about as much as somebody that's predicting the future of AI from tea leaves.

Taryn Ward  No, I think there's probably some pretty scrupulous tea-leaf readers out there. I'm not sure the same is true ...

Steven Jones  That's probably true! Rather than, rather thanTwitzer prognosticators on AI, you should trust the tealeaf readers maybe! Maybe you should? 

Taryn Ward  Why not? At least nobody's calling themselves the godfather to leaf reading. Yeah, that's true. So I think I think your point is, is important. So where are we? We are I would say before, if we're if we're comparing social networking to AI, we are definitely in this period of time before chat GPT. We are well before it. Yeah, this is still very early, very clumsy. It's labour intensive. So let's let's start with bulletin board systems. What were they online meeting places where users could share files and games, including pirated content, and they could communicate. Typically, these were run by hobbyists. And were often local with a meet-in-person component. This was partially to avoid long-distance fees, because remember, this was in dial-up, it didn't quite work that way. So you'd have to actually use your phone to call into wherever this is happening through your computer. So that's the most sophisticated description, but just stay with me, because it's not really the point. The point is more that the people who were organising this and even the people who are using this needed special equipment to even be able to participate. So again, very, very high threshold, it was not it was not an easy, easy thing to access. It was not for everyone. Eventually there, there came a period of time where people did try to commercialise and monetize this, and they would charge fees. And it was a different sort of approach. But this is not the equivalent of Facebook, or, or something like that it was not organised that well, it was often still run by a volunteer who was asking for money just to keep things working. So it was largely still, although maybe not officially a nonprofit, it was run more like that than as a money-making venture. 

Taryn Ward  When did this change? You can argue this different ways and how it shifted. But I think the next big thing to come along is was CompuServe. And this began strictly as a business solution and expanded into the public in the late 80s. So we're just now before America Online, just before sort of our chat GPT moment. And CompuServe actually started as something really similar to a bulletin board system, but it allowed email, messaging and discussion forums in a different way. Believe it or not, it was actually founded in 1969. So it was around it was around a good while. One other fun fact, whether you pronounce it GIF or JIF, that format was also introduced through CompuServe in 1987.

Steven Jones  Good grief, I mean, isn't it isn't it? Isn't it the case now that, that gifs or GIFs are no longer cool? At least for Gen Z and Gen, Gen Alpha, although I think the rest of us are feeling very resentful about being judged that way.

Taryn Ward  I think that's right. I think I've my understanding is now they're used ironically not in a very flattering way for your generation and for mine? 

Steven Jones  Yeah, that seems to be the way this goes. But I think they're wrong about that, as they were about hair partings. So we'll see who wins, who wins in the end. And it's very sad for those of us who who liked them. And I know, I know quite a few people who do, most of whom are younger than me. It's amazing that there's been around that long, right? So I suppose when you think of it that way from 87 Till now, that's a pretty good lifespan for any piece of tech.

Taryn Ward  Yes, yeah, it really is. And I didn't. So I did not use bulletin board systems. And I did not use CompuServe. My first experience was really the America Online era. But just a couple of points about how this would have worked. Not only were there no smartphones, there were no computers as we know them either. And even dial up would come later. So so this was really not super convenient. So even after CompuServe, and when that started to be a thing, and people started to use this more, it was still really not super accessible. People were not like, you know, opening their phones at the dinner table to check their CompuServe messages. No, it was still limited to to computer and you'd have to, you know, go to a different room, function-wise, or feature-wise, it was also still really very limited. So Steve, is you sort of set out earlier in the episode, this sort of standard definition for what an online social network is. We see these, these systems meeting those definitions in most cases. But the functionality really was so limited. I think for our purposes, rather than thinking of this as the start of social media as we know it, it's probably more helpful to think of it as the precursor.

Steven Jones  Yeah. And actually, we're talking just now I was thinking about these groups of people whose whose, you know, per own personal investment interests, sort of drive them to create these boards. And it's like the people who spend hours of their time moderating Wikipedia and running Reddit communities, you know, and read, it was very topical this year. And maybe we'll spend some time in another episode talking about that kerfuffle. But, you know, it's the work of these volunteers, which makes the platforms what they are. And so that, you know, the idea of this seems to be, you know, this is Wikipedia and Reddit are really an extension of these of these ideas, and perhaps Facebook and Twitter and so on. Not so much. But I mean, I think devotees of Wikipedia, which I would say I am and Reddit, which I'm sort of become a little bit, they're still very engaging ideas and genuine, because I think there are genuine communities who do this work. Yes,

Taryn Ward  I think that's that's right. And I think that's a great way to circle back to the point of this episode. Really? What was going on? Why did this even happen? How did this come about? It was not obvious that people would go through the effort to make something like this happen and work, there was very little, in many ways, benefit, measurable benefit to putting in all this effort to do this. So why did they do it was about connecting, it was about community, it was about doing something just like the best of Wikipedia, the best of Reddit, the best of these networks is about doing this even even though there's no obvious personal gain.

Steven Jones  Absolutely. And I think that's, that's one of the problems is, again, this example was Reddit, what is good for the platform, and the company and the CEO, was not good for the communities who actually make it what it is, and we saw, you know, can only be called a bit of a bit of a bus stop, there was a summer of discontent on Reddit, because those, you know, those imperatives would no longer aligned. And I think that's it's always dangerous for a service provider to be out of step with its with its constituent users, because it is in fact, really only the sum of its parts. A good lesson for for everyone in social media, I guess. But yeah, these these boards are really interesting. You know, and apparently, some of them are still functioning, which is absolutely amazing.

Taryn Ward  Yes, yeah, it really is. It's incredible, given how much has changed, and how much time has passed. It's amazing that some of these things continue on.

Steven Jones  Yeah, and when you were talking about, you know, we're gonna do a bit of a an exploration of sort of ham radio and CB radio, because, you know, that was even before this, that people reaching out and connecting, and it made me think of the same thing because you know, people who are interested in ham shortwave radio, spent a lot of money and a lot of time connecting with people that they would never meet on the other side of the world, in many cases, places they would never visit. And it was this need to connect and the love of talking to people and communicating with people that drove them to do it. And that you know, this is a this is becoming a bit of a theme. I guess one of the questions we can ask about current social media is, "Are they actually providing a way for people to do that, that that meets the what people need?", And if not, what is that going to mean? Mean for them? And that'll have impacts in in all of our future episodes, including the one on Tic Toc?

Taryn Ward  That's a great question. And we'll continue to trace the evolution of social media with a particular focus on the US and the UK in future episodes. And in the meantime, we'll post a transcript of this episode with references on our website. You can find this and more information about us at TheBrightApp.com.

Steven Jones  Until next time, I'm Steven Jones.

Taryn Ward  And I'm Taryn Ward.

Steven Jones  Thank you for joining us for Breaking the Feed, Social Media: Beyond the Headlines.